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Wowzers!

Has anyone read Starhawk's article titled "Pagans Reject the Idea of Evil -- How Do We Respond to Terrorism?", which deals with her concepts of good and evil and government and violence? And have you also read the response to it posted by people at Witchvox? Some people were venomous with their comments about her "feeling she has the right to speak for all Pagans" and her "fluffy bunniness".

I, personally, do not believe in a personification of all that is evil; nor do I believe in a personification of pure good. However, I do believe in the existence of both good and evil and that all beings are capable of either and commit either in varying degrees. That, however, is neither here nor there.

It bothered me that they immediately jumped to the conclusion that her personal opinions on what being pagan is and how pagans would/should react to terrorism or violence in general were seen as her Pontificating the One True Way. I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that, now that being a pagan or a witch is becoming more mainstream, there are more Pagans who ASSUME that any voiced or published opinion is someone telling them how a pagan is supposed to act/think.

I, myself, appear to be guilty of assuming that pagans as a whole have a tendency to think more for themselves than those on some of the more circumscribed spiritual paths. Whether or not you are the kind of person to accept Starhawk's opinions as "edicts" for good or ill, most pagan traditions advocate personal responsibility and the necessity of a certain amount of thought (or even reasoning!) before making decisions or forming opinions. I believe that Starhawk herself mentions right there in the article (and in numerous other places in her work, if I remember correctly) that pagans, usually, don't feel the need for a priesthood to interpret between themselves and the divine. So, it shouldn't matter what she says; what you think and do is up to you.

The argument could, I suppose, be made that since she presented this article on Beliefnet all and sundry could think that she does, in fact, speak for all of us. Well, those who can't think for themselves (of any faith or background) will do that anyway no matter who is writing or how they write it. Call yourself a witch and there are a bunch of people out there who will believe that Anton Lavey speaks for you, too. Does he post on Beliefnet? Is he even still alive? Won't matter. Not to them anyway.

Link as requested: http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detail.html?id=13491

Comments

Would you be so kind as to post a link to the article? On second thought, never mind; I'm sure I can track it down with a search engine. I'll "think for myself". ;)

One quick comment before I go and read: I sometimes worry that as Wicca and paganism become more mainstream, a priestly caste of sorts will emerge, and something really key to this spiritual path will be in danger of being lost. I'm all in favor of elders and teachers, but I wouldn't want people to forget that we are all priestesses and priests, and we don't need any outside authorities or official titles to tell us so.
The concept of the evolution of a priesthood to deal with pagans who'd rather not do it for themselves is something that bothers me as well. One of the posts that bothered me was the woman saying that when times got tough she missed having a priest to go to for guidance. Ummm, that's what covenmates are for -- They're priests/esses too. If you are solitary, that's a little harder, but if you really need to find others others on your path to consult that is where places like Witchvox etc. can be most efficacious. There's always a way. :)
I agree, I agree, I agree.

Come to think of it, though, I remember reading somewhere that some people have made a distinction between Pagans (people who honor the gods in this earth-centered way, follow the cycles and celebrate the holydays) and Witches (people who do all of the above, plus work with magic and pursue a wisdom path). Thus, Pagans might seek out Witches for help or counsel. Viewed in that way, it seems to be a matter of affinity, a personality-based choice, perfectly reasonable, and doesn't really bother me. How, though, is this different from the concept of "a priestly caste" that troubles me so?

Hmm.

Maybe it's a matter of remembering that the choice is always in one's own hands; anyone who wants to go deeper is free to do so. Such a person might very well benefit from guidance by experienced others, but is that required? Well, if I pursue this line much further I'll run the risk of getting tangled up in the whole Brit Trad v. Eclectic thing, and I'd really rather not go there. It's too hot. ;)
She says flat out that she's writing "one pagans opinon". Pretty clear that she's not putting out Pagan Fatwa's.

As to the response: The reason I get pissed at such things, is that we, ass allegedly civilized people, have come up with a set of rules so that we can blow the shit out of one another in a gneteel sort of way that minimizes harm to bystanders. Crazy, sure, but we've got some rules that most agree make the world just a tiny bit nicer. They're specifically flouting those rules. That pisses us off: ther was an aggreed upon way to do this sorts stuff, that was a valid connection that extended over and aorund our fellow humans, enemy and ally alike, and the terrorists are working to destroy that connection. As a pagan, I just see it as a conflict, one with a nasty turn to be sure, and I'd rather see things go back to the genteel way things were (for one reason, we're really very good at that stuff) but I do not subscribe to some overarching "right" way that Yaweh handed down as to how things "ought" to be: these are the tactics that are being used. I'll not condemn the terrorists as "evil" just annoyingly effective enemies.
Well you know the old standby about evil/beauty/truth/etc. being in the eye of the beholder. I agree they are being very effective enemies and we are being nowhere near as effective militarily, politically or socially in our response to their actions.
I realize that I didn't post my opinions on violence. Violence is an awful, terrible thing (in all the senses of the adjectives -- including the obsolete ones). It is a viable reaction in the proper sorts of situations. It is sometimes the only viable reaction. What used to be important to warrior cultures was knowing how to use it judiciously -- how to judge the time right for it -- and then to do it , do it well, and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) with the appropriate level of ferocity for the situation at hand. Yes, that does require making decisions and judgments. Which can go wrong. Which can be based on insufficient evidence/information and can lead to terrible consequences. As can not taking any action or taking inadequate action. No one promised us life would be easy. Here's the part where personal responsibility sucks... And the part where the light of what humanity could be shines brightest. At least in my eyes.

How do we handle terrorists? Thankfully, that is not my job to decide -- But sending a massive mostly civilian based army (What the hell are National Guard units doing out of country anyway?) would not have been my response. I would much have preferred ferocious surgical strikes, myself. However, we messed up on our intelligence and covert ends over the past 60 years or so and, it would seem, don't have the ability to perform such. I agree with Starhawk on it not being necessary to kill so many civilians. And I know as any student of history knows that when fighting guerrilla warfare it can be hard to tell the difference between a civilian noncombatant and a terrorist/insurgent/rebel. Where do we go from here? I don't know. I don't think it will be painless, though I wish it could. I can only try to continue voting my conscience and my beliefs and lending my support (monetary and otherwise) where I hope it will produce positive results. And, yeah, they are positive results that I would like, which may not correspond to someone else's.
(What the hell are National Guard units doing out of country anyway?)

Their job.

That's what they're there for, they're reserve units, to be called up by the nation in the event of need. Back in the day, My unit was to be sent off in our aging M-48 tanks to stem the Soviet Hordes in Germany should the cold war ever heat up.

Post vietnam, one change that was made was to require that NG and reserve units be involved early and often, so as to bring in community involvemnt early on. It was felt that having a large and disconnected-from-the-populace army that could get into wars but not necessarilly through them was not a good idea. So stuff is spread out more.

I have NO sympathy for people who put on the uniform and then don't want to go when the time comes, cause 'they just signed up for the college benefits'. They took an oath: now it's time to fufill that oath. However, I count myself as very lucky that I didn't get called on that lack of sympathy, and I never got to find out if I would be bitching if I got called up.
Then when they reorganized things they should have changed their name, too. I think I am not the only one that was under the impression that National Guard units were for internal defense of the country. I agree with you entirely when it comes to making oaths and standing by them. I don't however care if they bitch as long as they abide. :) After all, I swore my faith and love and loyalty to my husband and I stand by all those oaths -- though he drives me to bitching and carrying on on a regular basis. :)
I'd rather not: The mission is a matter public record and name changes to try and covey a change in mission, weel it all gets' silly after a point: as the missions get ever more refined, the name gets longer and longer. The National Guard is the porotion of the Army Reserves that are turned over to the states government to use in times of local emergency in addition to thier regular reserve component. As to being for defense only, there's a saying about what the best defense is...
Well, :P They didn't need the name to get longer... But they probably would have done so in this exceptionally stupid age. :) And naturally s good offense is nice, but I wish it had been better employed.
Okay: I've done a quick scan of Starhawk's essay, and the reactions on witchvox.

I think the problem was that, while she did clearly frame this as "one Pagan's opinion," she also was fairly free with the phrase, "as Pagans, we believe..." People who weren't reading closely were therefore in a position to jerk their metaphorical knees and say, "Don't try to tell me what I believe as a Pagan! And don't you dare try to tell other people what I believe! Don't you put words in my mouth like that!"

Then, too, a lot of the negative reactions seemed to boil down to disagreement with her anti-war stance.

As for my response to her article: her essential question seemed to be that old standby, "Can't we all just get along?" From where I sit, the answer remains, and likely always will be, "Sometimes." At least that's better than "No."
I wrote this comment rather hastily yesterday, and on reflection, I think it may have come off more facetiously than I would like. I never meant to imply that Starhawk's article was anything other than intelligent, thoughtful, and heartfelt. There's a lot more to it than "Can't we all just get along?", although that longing is certainly in evidence.
You did seem a little flip, but I had to agree there was that in the article. She's been fighting her own form of the good fight so long that she's probably gotten quite tired and is retreating to the simpilicity and truth of cliches. Can't blame people. As you get older the world becomes much more gray than the lovely black and white we enjoyed as children. It's easy, when you're tired and sad, to try to revert to the black and white blinders than to keep trying to measure shades of gray. After all, all that measuring is tiresome and time-consuming and even then you make mistakes -- which only makes you sadder and more tired. The certainty of youth and old age can be quite a comfort. *Sometimes Shymsal looks forward to her own dotage on this point!*